Count Ezekiel Rage the 1st

Exactly. Make up a character called Wolverine is NOT an idea. Hence Roy Thomas is not a co-creator. It is simple, in my opinion.
And I would love to continue this. Unfortunately real life has caught up with me, as it is 7:20 A.M. If I should be so lucky I will read the rest once my day is over.

I think we are saying the same things, really. I just would argue that Peter being an orphan is something the people creating that first Spidey issues would probably have done anyway, whether or not Jack suggested it, because they had 8 pages and this gets a lot out of the way quickly.

Oh, we all create what has already been done before. At leat I do. Maybe I am not that good a writer. But again, the idea itself means little, what you make of it counts. An orphan is not much of an idea, I am sure that part of Spidey would still be there even without Jack.

...and that character has its own unique backstory, look and development, I am not a co-creator.
If I write that backstory myself and flesh out the character and give it to an artist, I am a co-creator.
The two cats? They get nothing.

If I walk down the street and see two cats fighting and that gives me the idea for a character that shape-shifts into a horde of cats, that doesn't make the cats co-creators.
The input for an idea can come from anywhere. If I am an editor and tell a writer/artist to develop that character...

I find it funny that we both agree and still discuss the topic. I think that is very nice.
And yes, of course the real world does not work this way. I am aware. Perhaps the core issue lies in how "creation" is an argument in itself in the first place.

For example:

In Austria he would get credit if the other band members agreed. But if there were a fight, legally speaking, he wouldn't, no.
If everyone agrees then there is no isse in the first place.

That is why I said that the initial idea does not matter that much. Without Roy Thomas there is no Wolverine, perhaps. But if you replace Roy Thomas with any other editor telling Len and John to do a new villain, you may just end up with something similar by any other name.

Quite a few things I believe should happen don't happen. More often than not that is good, if I am being honest.

I don't know if I should say that, because Jack Kirby is the king, but that also goes with what I am arguing: The initial idea means little in my opinion. Stan was just plain wrong about that. In Jack's case, great name and logo, but an orphan as a superhero was already superhero 101 in the 60s.

One More Day was a big change. Unfortunately. But I digress. I understand your point. But if you, say, give Spider-Man organical web shooters, for example, you didn't suddenly co-create Spider-Man, even if that sticks around for years.

In Austria we have a 10% threshold for songwriting, although what constitutes as 10% is rather arbitrary. The producers changing a song up or adding a riff does not fall into that category. If he rewrites parts of it, then a discussion must be had.

I dont know about the U.S. but in Austria this wouldn't fly AT ALL.

That is why I can only re-iterate what I said about the subject earlier: I don't know how much input Roy Thomas had, if any. I think if an editor tells a writer and an artist to do a character, the editor is not co-creator, as the character was developed and finally made by the writer and artist.

I know, making music, comics, writing books and scripts for years, decades almost. And yet, to me, giving proper credit always seemed rather simple. In the case of your guitar riff, if the riff is a big part of why th esong is a hit, that person gets credit. Thats what I believe should happen.

That is what I am saying. I think, evne in comics, the initial idea means very little. It is the writers and artists who run with it and create a character. In time that character gets fleshed out by contributers.

I did not know about the logo. Wasn't Jack's pitch about a ring with powers like Green Lantern? Web gun and all that?

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I can only state once more that I would linken it to songwriting in a band. The people who had the biggest hand in making it what it is are the creators. The rest may very well be contributers. The difference being how much of a piece was done by who.

Wow! I am kinda excited to get a reply from you! Sorry, fanboying out here a bit. But I digress:
I read about the Kirby/Spider-Man thing. Apparently there also floats a yellow kids costume from the 50s around that has that name and was created by Jack.

Because, I admit, In my case, I am not very well versed in anything Wolverine at all. I have only heard about this controversy when @markwaid.bsky.social mentioned it a few days ago. I know nothing about the behind the scenes and merely try to relay how I view the topic of co-creations in general.

Which brings me back to Wolverine. I don't know how much input Roy Thomas had, if any. I just think that if an editor tells a writer and an artist to do a charcter that is this and that, the editor is not co-creator, as the character was developed and finally made by the writer and artist.

Now IF Stan did all of it himself, then he would of course be right. But he didn't. So he was wrong. As you so rightfully pointed out, the Marvel Method meant that multiple people had a hand. I believe, and that is just my opinion, that in this case it really was *mostly* Steve and Stan.

No, what I mean is that by my definition, Stan was wrong in claiming that "he had the idea so he should be creator". Stan is rightfully credited as co-creator, as is Steve. It is not about the initial idea, but about the work put in by people who defined the final character.

I am not trying to state facts. I am trying to explain my opinion, as you requested.

No, I am answering a question he put forward.

I think, in a sense, I would link comic book creations more to songwriting in a band rather than TV or Film. In a band there are thresholds as to what amount of work nets you a songwriter credit. How much input did one have? How much did that change the song? Is your input essential or just tweaks?

Steve Ditko may very well have made Spider-Man, but it was Stan Lee's writing who made the character what it is. The question, in this sense, is, would Spider-Man be any different if any other artist drew what Lee wanted or if any other writer wrote over what Ditko drew?

My argument is that, just because you had the idea for the character doesn't mean much. If i give an incredibly thorough visual description, some artists will end up with the same result. If my character writign is bland, a better writer may evolve the characters. They all contributed to a degree.

If I use my abyssmal drawing skills to "draw" the character and I get a proper artist to work on that, I drew the character first. But if another writer takes my rather bland character and adds a unique twist, a twist that makes the character special, that additional writer also is co-creator.

I have a simple stance on creators: How much would a character change if one of the people involved were replaced by somebody else? If the answer is "very little" then this person clearly is not a co-creator. If the answer is "a lot" then this person clearly is co-creator. It seems rather simple.

So far over 18 000 people watched my free vampire hunter B-movie on YouTube :)
I am pleased^^

Somebody put a song of mine onto some viral video somewhere. It generated 37 MILLION IMPRESSIONS that I actually got paid for and I made a total of 400 dollars from that. That amounts to pretty much 0.000012 dollars or 0.0012 cents per impression. I wonder what Miley Cyrus makes?

So am I, to behonest. And I am really looking forward to the rest of the series. I am glad you revisit the character, your minis are always a highlight for me.

Take note literally everyone at Marvel: @jmdematteis.bsky.social once again delivers in spades. THIS is how you do a Spider-Man book, people. Do you know how big my smile was at the end? This! All of my this!
Go and buy Spider-Man: Shadow of the Green Goblin!

I am not a spiritual person nor a religious one. I do agree on kindness. In a world where one can be anything I try to be kind. I may fail, due to, as written here, my own inability to recognize my own hurtful behavior. Sometimes we fail. It is how we react to that failure that makes us what we are.

I recently said one of the reasons I liked @jmdematteis.bsky.social writing is that he offers kindness and compassion in his writing instead of constant violence.

While I agree, I am also inclined to think that people who define a character have somewhat of a right to call themselvs co-creator somewhat. For example Deadpool. Fabian and Rob created him, yes, but without Joe Kelly, we wouldn't be here. Same goes for Chris Claremont and the X-Men.

If that happened to me I'd flip out. I have a hard time writing to other people's wishes. I guess that's why I rarely write for others.
But the fact that the people at Lucas didn't understand is just... I wrote one Star Wars story and I am sure Disney wouldn't like it. Not that they'd ask anyway...

Why, what kind of special relationship do YOU of all people have to Kraven? ;)

I think Harry was the better Goblin. I like the fact that the Clone Saga brought back Norman but I always thought he works better as ruthless businessman. Harry was more personal to Peter. What Howard Mackie did with Norman was more interesting to me than his Goblin. Harry is more complex, I think.

A western movie where a bounty hunter is said to be legendarily unkillable, tracking an escaped convict with the final twist being the unkillable bounty hunter is a Terminator hunting the ancestor of Sarah Connor.

I gotta level with ya, the reason you are about love and compassion is one of the reasons I like your work so much - at least, what I read :)

All of my this! Then again these extra 2 pages can also be so hard to fill if you deliberately wanted to do a shorter story and have to fill them. Is this why pinups were invented?

Probably the most influental man in the medium I reckon.

Listen to my gloriously fake accent in this trailer for my newest game! #gamedev #indiedev #retrogaming
www.youtube.com/watch?v=acHO...

Weiß nicht, was ihr habt, sieht auch nicht schlechter aus als der ganze andere Dreck der so produziert wird. Ein wenig billiger, okay, aber ihr müsst euch das ja auch nicht ansehen.

Can't wait for that book.
BTW, who do I talk to for a small itnerview regarding a book I wrote? It's basically a "Clone Saga: What Happened?" kinda book :)

Do Comics count? If so, I posted that too^^